If you are good at singing, or writing or gardening, you will make others who do not share your talents feel inferior, so in the interests of equality and peaceful co-habitation you must be less good at what you do and pretend not to be passionate about it.
The result is a race to the bottom in mediocrity in which the people who are good at nothing enjoy watching all the talented people sink down to their level. People with artistic talents are particularly targeted. As a result of the envy and resentment that creative people create, these people are told they must run workshops and share their art skills. In this way the real threat caused by the artistically talented is defused and suppressed and mediocrity reigns.
Witness the communally painted rainbow murals and hand-print group paintings that are found within intentional communities. Kitsch is more than merely mediocre or lazy art, it is the deliberate stamping out of all individual self-expression. Jokes usually are based on confessions of inadequacy and personal failings, on prejudices and unfortunate moments in life, embarrassments and so on.
However, all such negativity is outlawed and as a result humor vanishes from the intentional community. Many multi-faith organizations actually frown upon humor and laughter. Eventually humor becomes feared. It is stigmatized as a personal failing. It is seen as being cruel.
Again this is the subjugation of daily reality to the demands of an abstract ideal not actually grounded in real human behavior but in an impossible abstract ideal. Funny people become frowned on in intentional communities and those who believe in communally policed-language gain power.
Many naturally humorless people find refuge in communes and enforce their condition on others as a universal credo. Once they get rid of the funny people and the people who ask questions they can rule with humorless, joyless intensity. One result of this is that intentional communities are lonely places. Focus on a rigidly defined language and self-purification lead to isolation of each individual from every other.
Derived from eastern religions, Hinduism, Taoism and Buddhism, strong partner bonds are seen as weakness and dependence. Tree hugging however, spread eagling yourself on the ground and kissing the earth, getting naked and being re-birthed through a naked human tunnel are common displacement activities and go some way to making up for actual one-to-one relationships.
Outbursts of tears that are then greeted by a pile-on of communal hugs and become a perverse behavior. Everyone wants to have a hug because they are denied intimacy so they prey on the person who is upset.
I just need to be alone. This is regression to feudal living, a fetishization of rustic poverty, back breaking toil and community labor. In certain unscrupulous cases cult leaders used such armies of unquestioning hard laborers as free manual labour. Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh otherwise known as Osho and his now collapsed intentional community Rajneeshpuram in Oregon, exploited his followers in such a way and got them to build his properties for free, he also made them abandon their worldly possessions by donating them to his organization while he himself road around in a fleet of Rolls Royces.
Agricultural efficiency is therefore not a priority in intentional communities and sometimes comes in conflict with the need for self-purification. In the s there was a conflict in Findhorn over an automatic potato peeling machine, which drastically reduced labor and increased efficiency — as several hundred potatoes were required to be prepared every day.
It is a well documented fact of psychology that cutting yourself off from the world leads to persecution complex. The focus on one leader who will protect all followers against impending threat from the outside world leads followers to extreme acts to demonstrate allegiance and faith and to protect the leader. The peaceful commune of the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh Osho was broken up in after they were caught planning to assassinate a district attorney. Even in peaceful places like the intentional communities I visited, there is a palpable fear of contaminated outsiders entering and destroying the colony.
A siege mentality ensues and grows, especially whenever anything goes wrong within the community. External forces are blamed. The community becomes so used to scapegoating the outside world for all its own failings that it becomes a walled community either literally or metaphorically. The fear of invasion or subversion from the outside world grows the more the paranoia is invested in. The community is convinced that it is always just about to be attacked.
This becomes part of the community cohesion. The community increasingly comes to resemble a separate island and one constantly on the look out for infiltrators or traitors. It is perhaps no coincidence that early formulations of Utopia were without exception images of islands in uncharted places. Any movement to outside and the world beyond, even if it be a trip to the supermarket as supplies of soy milk have run out is viewed with suspicion.
It is not uncommon among peaceful intentional communities for there to be violent expulsions of people suspected of betraying community standards. These expulsions do not occur with judge and jury but with those in the invisible and denied hierarchy acting like overlords.
Transgressors become punished in ways that are not in line with external societal law. One might even say that separatist groups can only survive with the threat of constant expulsions and that this goes back to the origins of communalism.
Over time all such communities develop tightly policed group-think and become cults. It is worth bearing in mind, that Jonestown, the colony in Guyana created by The Rev Jim Jones managed to foster an obsessive groupthink of impending persecution.
As a communist slash religious cult it saw itself as under imminent threat of destruction from the FBI and American capitalism. The members who committed suicide , through the now infamous ingestion of cyanide in Kool Aid, did so because of a fear of an invasion from the outside world that did not actually exist. Jim Jones final speech, as his followers are dying around him, is evidence of how cult leaders actually depend upon creating a fear of external invasion to hold onto their power.
Evidence also of the fatal dangers of believing that your intentional community is ethically pure precisely because it is under threat of imminent destruction. Long before Skinner and behavioral science there have been numerous attempts made to wipe the slate clean and re-program human behavior, enforcing new behavior models for Utopian dwellers. Etienne Cabet — a lawyer from Dijon, who later played an important part in the French Revolution, established a Utopian community in Illinois, with sixty-nine settlers, based on his best-selling fictional account of a planned Utopian colony — Travels in Icaria The Icarians had a regimented workday that began at six a.
Health care is free and provided by the state and gambling is forbidden. Criminals wear fetters made of the most debased metal of all — gold. Such constant behavioral manipulation, More believed, tackled the root of the vices and creates better people. In imagined Utopias behavioral modification of a weak and easily tempted populace who might regress to their old ways has been a recurring obsession.
In Johann Eberlien von Gunzburgs Utopia known as Wolfaria , the persistent problems of idleness, drunkenness and licentiousness are to be cured by the drowning of drunks and punishing adultery by public execution a tradition practiced by the Scots until Games that are played sitting down chess, cards, dice are banned, as a sedentary life leads to early death.
While all seven walls of the city are adorned with murals illustrating the sciences of astronomy, geology, anthropology, zoology, botany and anatomy with pickled specimens on display where appropriate so that all the streets are classrooms and children learn as a by-product of play.
All punishments are public and there is no jail. Those who commit sodomy are forced to wear a shoe on their heads and a sign that says they have perverted the natural order — putting the feet where the head should be and if they repeat the crime they are stoned to death by the locals, who all must take part in communal punishments. All of which begs the questions as to how natural our current behaviors are.
They are certainly not set in stone and so can be modified. But whether there is a human blank slate, or certain behaviors common to all cultures exist or have been historically seen as beneficial is a subject of much controversy.
So again and again Utopians have had to deprogram their followers from regressing to the reactionary worship of private property, wealth and even privacy, this at times has meant killing the root of the old order that is still dormant within oneself. It is no good to fight rich capitalists, you also have to destroy the need for greed within yourself.
Post-it notes and signs are like a virus in intentional communities. People leave message for each other as if they were posted by a higher authority. This causes a state of guilt that is visible before all others; everyone knows who the post-it was meant for. Rather than just coming out and confronting someone face to face, this God-of —the-post-it-notes has the final say.
All though it is usually one person who writes the notes, it carries the weight of the entire commune — you unnamed person have transgressed against the unwritten laws of the unnamed persons, signed, the unnamed person. Passive aggressive and authoritarian, the entire situation is amplified by the lack of private property.
The cheese is not your cheese of which you can eat as much as you like it is the communal cheese which must be rationed. If people had their own rooms, their own, cheese and their own music, this would not be a problem. Everyone becomes a servant of, and a paranoid observer of the non-negotiable commands of the Unnamed God of the Post-It notes.
And what is the God of the Post-It notes, but a frustrated universal planner, a Utopian convinced that if only everyone else would follow their plan down to the last Post-It note and Post-It note instructions would be on every object then the community would finally be at peace. There is one other final and hard-to-face factor that is an unintended consequences of Utopian alternative parenting experiments. There is a reason that the average life of a Utopian project is the time to takes to settle and begin to raise children.
But the children of Utopians fail every test: they are selfish, they grab and steal, they fight, and love competitive sports, they bully and they lie — just like all other children. Lying, it turns out, is a necessary developmental stage in learning. These naturally dishonest, violent creatures disprove the theory of human mind as a blank slate upon which images of perfection can be drawn.
As the behaviorist J. Utopian behavioral engineering is an ongoing struggle against something that Utopians deny even exists — human nature. Not only are Utopian parents horrified by the little dictators that they have spawned, they find that they themselves have horrible anti-Utopian cravings to put their children above all the others.
The maternal bond and the need for privacy also seem to be pan-cultural. Children brought up communally suffer neglect, as other adults find ways of refusing to care for children that are not their own.
People care a lot more for their own kids than they do for other kids as an obligation. They also lead to male dominated harems. All of this is done, with the coercive Utopian alibi that all capitalist and patriarchal behaviors and boundaries must be swept away. Auroville, which attempts to be government-free, and money-free, has been plagued with growing reports of the crimes of Sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape and murder.
Skip to content Home Coursework Why do utopian communities fail? Ben Davis March 6, Why do utopian communities fail? Why do communes fail? Why do utopias often become dystopias? What is life like in a utopian society? What would be the perfect utopia? Which country is closest to Utopia?
Is Utopia Texas real? Can a utopia exist? Are there any real utopian societies today? What city is closest to Utopia? Is America a utopian society? What utopian society was the most successful? What are the problems with utopias? What are the four types of utopias?
Capable men and women can still be chosen to perform certain functions, and they can still be called leaders and managers, etc. For example, an army of anarchists could appoint one of them to be their military leader, because of his great skill in tactical warfare, but none of them will feel compelled to obey him simply because he is the leader. They will follow his instructions only insofar as they feel his directions are wise and just.
The instant they feel like he is guiding the army in the wrong direction, they have no qualms about taking their arms and walking back home. Anarchy works because of necessity only the very wisest and skilled of men and women can be chosen among the people for the various leadership and management positions, for no one will follow them out of a sense of duty. This naturally weeds out the wrong people from the various positions to be filled.
So, I am not anti-leadership, as you think I am. In hierarchical systems, leaders are above the followers. In anarchy, leaders are at the same level as the followers.
In the gospel, leaders are below subservient to, or servants of the followers. Orderville leadership strikes me as hierarchical, which I am against.
The other two forms I can tolerate. I think part of your description of anarchists excludes certain people that it could include. Property rights and contracts are important and must be adhered to. If a person so wishes to contract with another to be their master that is their choice and must be adhered to since it was contracted.
In this manner we contract covenant with God to follow and obey Him. LDSA 32 — This is probably a topic for a different post or discussion — I confess that most of this discussion has sailed right over my poor little head up there in the intellectual ether.
Charity is the most fundamental, real truth or M. We are each absolutely and perfectly beloved of God, no questions asked, no strings attached — just the way it is. Economic models, forms of governance, tribal relationships, hierarchies, good or bad management, etc etc etc henceforth and forever amen and amen, not going to make it happen.
Zion will be a natural, unstoppable result of this personal transformation, wherever it occurs, whether it be a Zion of one or two individuals or a thousand — though at some point I think it would have a snowball effect or a stone cut out of the mountains without hands effect, whichever you prefer. But it is easier in groups with like-minded people, easier to teach to children, more resilient and self-correcting. Of course, Jon I thought that was self-evident. People are free to enter into whatever type of contractual or covenantal relationship they want.
If they want to create their own little State government, they are free to go right ahead and do so. All the anarchies that organize themselves will be established according to how the people of that particular anarchic society decides to adapt to those particular set of circumstances. Central planning, or micromanagement, is anathema to the fluid, rapidly adapting nature of anarchy. An anarchy based upon gospel laws will, of course, contain covenants, linking us to both God and to one another.
But there can be other types of anarchies. In fact, there are about as many flavors of anarchists as there are other types of political ideologies. Anarchy, to me, is like a clean sheet of paper.
Two or more people can come together, take up pencils and begin designing whatever organizational chart for an anarchic society that they want, as long as everything is voluntary.
All the anarchies designed can be based upon the same principle of freedom, yet appear very different from one another. As new conditions present themselves, those who voluntarily join an anarchy might see the need to flip their pencils around and start erasing a part of the design, and then redesign it to fit in better with the new circumstances. This is the way it is supposed to work.
When I come in and see all these pieces of paper, with the various anarchy flavors, I understand that pretty much all of them are vastly superior to the coercion that is the State. But my concern is: which of these anarchies most closely resembles that of Zion? As I compare the scriptures to these designs, it becomes plain that tribal anarchy is a match. However, there may be as many different forms of tribal anarchy as there are different anarchic ideologies.
No two forms will be alike, since the members of these societies will operate as they see fit. When you take a tribal anarchy and overlay the gospel of Jesus Christ on top of it, as revealed through Joseph Smith, you get something resembling what Justin and I have been writing about.
But even within those parameters, there is still a lot of room for variety. Last night, I believe it was, I was flipping through television channels and I stopped on some news program. I think it was Dateline. Anyway, they were talking about a device that used sonic energy to scare away animals.
The sound emitted by the device could not be heard by humans, but animals ran away from it. So, they decided to test it. They brought the device to some historical garden that was having a major problem with deer and then dropped a bunch of apples in places, set the device, turned their cameras on, and waited. The deer came and ate the apples, despite the sound. They did a second test with biscuits and another type of animal. The animals came for that and ate it, too.
The news team talked to an animal expert, who said that the urge to eat is very strong and apples and biscuits are a particularly enticing treat. Zion will never be established until we view it as our biscuits and apples. As long as we see it as any other type of food, an inaudible sonic emission will righten us and keep us away.
It is only when we see it as something beyond delicious, and crave it to the point that nothing will discourage us from going to it and partaking of it, then, and only then will it be established. Until we have Zion on our brains and in our hearts, it will remain unapproachable. It must become an urge so overpowering that no amount of discouragement, from any quarter including church quarters , can stop us.
No one, absolutely no one, weeps for Zion anymore. Zion, says the Lord, is the pure in heart. Only the broken hearted are accepted by the Lord. When you are accepted by the Lord, He forgives your sins and visits you, purifying your heart. It is the pure in heart that see God.
Who, then, among us has seen God? None of us have. No one has a pure heart. Not a one of us. Our hearts are set on riches, on our mundane lives, on busybody work, on trivialities, on intellectualism, on everything but Zion.
And no one weeps anymore for sin. God can do nothing with us because of the state of our hearts. We have set up a meritocracy among us. We think we can earn or obtain faith, hope and charity by working for it in church service. But these things are gifts of God given only to the broken-hearted, or those who weep for their sins. It is easier to put on white shirts and ties, clean pressed clothes, smiles and warmly greet one another, than it is to pour out our souls to God.
We have created the illusion of righteousness, without any of its real effects. Any man or woman that obtains purity of heart through their broken heart, contrite spirit and sincere repentance, also obtains charity. And once you obtain it, you become filled with the never-ending desire that everyone else have it, too. That is why those who have charity cannot cease striving to establish Zion.
The apple must overpower the sonic device. Once the savor is in you, your mouth never stops watering. This by design. Everyone has their noses stuck somewhere else. The strength of the tribe is a charity and b a common goal. That common goal, which you insist must be achieve through covenant, can be underscored either by covenant including marriage covenants or simple devotion to Christ.
Likewise, my definition of kinship necessarily includes more than my blood relatives. The freedom we gain by following Christ is more than enough to compensate for a lack of contracts, covenants and willpower.
Thank you for a the English lesson and b allowing yourself to condescend to my level. I am in awe. Nevermind, no harm no foul. Must be adhered to? I disagree with the premise that a property rights are important and b that they must be adhered to. There is a bit too much control in that statement to get me on board and I doubt property rights are necessary for either Zion or a well oiled anarchical society. No, not really.
The scraps of information we have about them do not provide useful practical information. What was the government like for any of these situations?
How exactly did they achieve it? Christ is telling us to exercise faith on the morrow. Otherwise, somebody would have figured out how to make it years ago and it would still work in the long term, not these short periods of utopia in a few places.
Compare the Greeks at war to the Cherokee at war. The Greeks often had military units that elected their officers, etc. The Cherokee were more of a consensual anarchy. Not that there is not a lot of good to be said for the governmental system they had. It just had weaknesses as well that were significant. Anyone who wants to study anarchy that worked, better than the current ones, would do well to look at the pre-trail of tears Cherokee.
You can have people working together in anarchy. The people can contract with one another to help defend themselves against enemies. If small scale democracies actually stayed small I would actually be all for it. Violence is only acceptable when defending your group or yourself otherwise it is not OK. So small scale democracy that its sole purpose is defense would be OK.
I guess we could speculate about all sorts of alternative universe scenarios. I can imagine a world where water runs uphill and babies drink gasoline instead of milk. I mean this without snark of any kind— I am as bewildered by the mass of human problems as the next person. MoHo — my series is aimed at ways to work within this world to create alignments that make the reality we are in work better.
More bullcrap. In an anarchy, exactly who is going to enforce a contract or a covenant? If you and I contract to meet up for BBQ and you fail to show up, exactly how am I going to get recompense for you failing to uphold your part of the bargain? Who is going to make you pay? Should I pull out my gun and hunt you down?
That truly would be anarchy. Someone else in the given society is going to have to enforce the contract. So we hire JMB to be our enforcer. Can you see yet how utterly impractical, impossible, improbable and finally, utterly stupid the notion of anarchy is in a given society?
Dan, I love you man, you are such a great person. You always are great at trying to understand my points of view. Here, let me help you understand. So you got it exactly right. We pay the third party to do this function, of our own free will.
Just read blockcop. Monopolies of violence, meant to keep the criminals at bay will only attract the smart criminals and dishonest. Your worldview is a simplistic utopia that accounts for little of the real world. Hell, you still have yet to acknowledge that even your own father of your philosophy, Friedrich Hayek, thinks social services ought to be maintained and provided for.
Yours is a failed utopia. You backpedaled away from Somalia before, saying that only the 6-year Quaker life of the s fit your criteria for utopia, and now are back to the ridiculous notion that Somalia is some utopian society. This is your utopian society:. Maybe I should follow Chris H. I guess one can only hold his finger in the dike for so long before the flood overwhelms any attempt at stopping the madness.
Too few here push back against your stupid notions and beliefs. You have still failed to address the fact that people used to not believe it was possible to live without slaves but there were radicals that said it was possible and pushed towards this utopian world. Would you have us still be slaves to the state?
I think we should still be united in the defense of our countrymen, not in the offense against others but defense. I think we should be united in helping one another, not with the use of violence of voluntarily.
You keep thinking that all I care about is myself. You never acknowledge that I do care about others and that is why I want the free market because I believe it is the best way. The flood that we are trying to prevent are the avowed socialists like you who wish to make this country into Marxist dream. It is best reprised by John Galt who said:. Your ideology could only work in a perfect environment with no variables but your own.
It has no basis in real life. It cannot account for anything that might screw things up, that are actual costs, a negative cost to society. You speak of the enforcement of violence as if it were some bad thing, but God does this. God can take your life a violent act at whim, at his choosing. You are not a free creature. You do not live in a world where you get to pick and choose which variables can affect your society.
You are on your own to figure out how to deal with things no one has ever dealt with before, and with little to no real guidance from the Creator. And you stick with a simplistic, utterly unrealistic ideology and expect reasonable people to take your ideas reasonably.
In the real world, you ought to be laughed off this blog. But alas too many here prefer to live in some strange fantasy. So be it. He at least acknowledges some of the variables of actual life that make libertarianism an impossibility to implement in its pure form. There can never exist in this life the kind of society Jon advocates for. That we even entertain such ideas is utterly ludicrous. The state is our slave and does our bidding.
Do you brethren quarrel thus about every topic or just on theories of Zion? Seriously, though — is a blog discussion worth being in danger of hell fire? Matthew Would the world stop turning if we loosened our deathgrip on our opinions for a moment?
Bless us in the fervor of our beliefs; may it bring us the joy that is the reason for our existence. Sooner rather than later. Stephen, for the last few years I have benn looking for models for Zion that can work in this world. They are prospering and growing and have a form of Zion. Is there a model for the industrial world? I think the Catholics have already figured it out over years ago when Distributism was codified. From The Front Porch Republic.
Indeed, the individual cooperatives have the right to leave the corporation; participation is voluntary. The corporation itself is ruled not by outside investors there are none but by the workers themselves. You might call this an inverted model of corporate organization. The firm is built from the ground up rather than the top down. It is of course a profit-making enterprise, but profit is not an end in itself, it is merely a means to a much broader set of ends. The guiding principle is solidarity, people caring for each other with the help formal structures and institutions.
And a successful one at that. Moreover, it lessens the need for big government by providing social services from its own resources. Principles alone will not satisfy your hunger. They cannot produce community because they are designed to keep people apart. By holding up standards and motivating people to conform to them they only encourage people to pretend to be what they are not or to act like they know more than they really do.
Thus their relationships become superficial or even false because they only let people see the shadow they want them to see, not who they really are. They fight over control of the institution, however large or small, so that they can make others do what they think is best. It is a story that has been repeated for a couple of thousand years. A few furtive eyes shot in my direction. But you do have the chance here to discover real community. That grows where we share our common lot as failed human beings and the journey of being transformed by Jesus working in us.
It thrives where people are free to be exactly who they are—no more and no less. I did some work for a 14 billion dollar enterprise that was one. They are fascinating groups, when they work and when they fail. But I hope this series, and the various links I provided, have helped some people see where I was headed. I appreciated your comment on the importance of the principle of subsidiarity.
Community always arises in nature by the higher level first meeting the needs of the lower level. The higher level only obtains its identity as a community because it gets very good at meeting the needs of its subsidiary levels. Care to share where the quote comes form in Would that quote mean more or less to you [and carry more or less weight in your mind]— if it was your favorite author, from Mises, from a favorite GA, from an LDS or a non-LDS, or even if it was just from someone you respected for that matter, or someone you have never heard of?
Is the authority in the source or in the message? I prefer context, and yes, it does matter where it comes from and who said it. Truth is its own authority, independent of who or what said it. You can find the source by clicking on this link. The evidence does not bear this out. ICs, in the form of cohosing and ecovillage communities, are proliferating across the United States, Europe, and elsewhere.
Such groups do not consider themselves utopian. They seek to cooperation, where possible, and are mostly made of people who think the post-war American trend to anonymous suburbs conneted by freeways was a bad idea. We at the Utah Valley Commons feel likewise. We hope to build solar-powered houses, connected by pedestrian walkways, and surrounded by acres of permaculture gardens. Living in community is the wave of the future — even though, in a sense, it represents a return to the wisdom of our grandparents.
But I certainly enjoy going out with friends occasionally on their boats and having a good time. Sorry that you missed the point so clearly. Jon, private ownership or stewardship seems to be an integral part of what will make portions of a Utopia work in the long run. People look at an idea and try to insert it into the context we currently know and they judge it with those presuppositions. Of course anarchism implemented at the flip of a switch in the modern U.
No one is stupid enough to think otherwise. Similarly, socialism would be an abysmal failure if implemented at the flip of a switch. These things take time, effort, and diligence to implement successfully no matter which ideal you choose. There would need to be a cultural shift at the very least.
This is the nature of the messy world we live in. An ideal that, if implemented correctly, based on the rules and philosophy laid out, might be successful. The same could be said about the united order.
The world is a messy place, fraught with errors, noise, and problems. I am saddened that so many of us feel we must defend our ideal at the expense of others even resorting to personal attacks. I enjoyed being named arbiter in the BBQ scenario. I would enjoy being the dictator…er ummm…righteous king.
That is a correct assessment. The compromise is libertarianism. Although, when compromising, one must be very careful, since it easily leads to a loss of all freedom and liberty. I have been preaching against Communism for twenty years. I still warn you against it, and I tell you that we are drifting toward it more rapidly than some of us understand, and I tell you that when Communism comes the ownership of the things which are necessary to feed your families is going to be taken away from us.
I tell you freedom of speech will go, freedom of the press will go, and freedom of religion will go. I have warned you against propaganda and hate. We are in the midst of the greatest exhibition of propaganda that the world has ever seen.
Just do not believe all you read or hear. The elect are being deceived. Indeed, it may well be that our government and its free institutions will not be preserved except at the price of life and blood….
We may first observe that communism and socialism—which we shall hereafter group together and dub Statism—cannot live with Christianity nor with any religion that postulates a Creator such as the Declaration of Independence recognizes. The slaves of Statism must know no power, no authority, no source of blessing, no God, but the State…. This country faces ahead enough trouble to bring us to our knees in humble honest prayer to God for the help which He alone can give. Do not think that all these usurpations, intimidations, and impositions are being done to us through inadvertency or mistake, the whole course is deliberately planned and carried out; its purpose is to destroy the Constitution and our Constitutional government….
We have largely lost the conflict so far waged. But there is time to win the final victory, if we can sense our danger, and fight. Reuben Clark was crazy too. Are you gonna start quoting Ezra Taft Benson too?
He was also crazy. She says so herself. You claim you are a peaceful man, but here you quote a crazy person who says this:. Indeed, it may well be that our government and its free institutions will not be preserved except at the price of life and blood.
Nice to see you read my stuff. All I was saying is that some of my ideas are espoused by others, even Paul the Apostle. Of course, you would have us a king if you had your way.
You yourself quote a king. Your idea of freedom is to be commanded by a king, and not to be your own man. Paul the Apostle does NOT espouse your ideas.
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